Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jay Smith on March 4, 2012 at 12:33pm

Good post April.  I think the rift you spoke of can also, at least partly, be attributed to man's innate desire to feel we have more control over our lives than we really do.  People want to feel they make their own luck.  People want to believe they have jobs other don't because of personal choice and hard work. And why not, who wouldn't sleep better at night holding this belief?  I've been in both camps during this period and I see the fine line that separates the employed from the unemployed.  It's sad that some out there feel they are so immune.  

Permalink Reply by Craig Anthony on March 4, 2012 at 1:55pm

Someone going to school to better themselves is not worthless… You’re going through hard times like the rest of us. Anyone that thinks people would rather live off unemployment than work a real job is an idiot and folks worth talking to know the economy is the problem. The few LAs that are working right now are lying awake at night waiting for the other shoe to drop. Principals at big firms and one-person shops are as scarred as anybody else. You recognize that LAs are not the only ones starving right now. So you might as well stay the course because nobody’s offering up any safe alternative routes. A bet against Landscape Architecture is a bet against this country recovering as far as I’m concern. Study hard and hang in there, it’s not going to stay like this forever.

Permalink Reply by mauiBob on March 4, 2012 at 7:16pm

April, Try telling this to Andrew! Its either you're on the "inside" or "outside" of LA. There are no gray areas.

Craig, there you go again my friend: "hang in there, not like this forever." You living in Disneyland or something? Some people can't wait 4 or 5 years! And when it does, eventually come back, firms have learned to do with less employees. The days of those mass hiring are gone. I'm just giving reality advice of the state of the profession. Judging by your words, there should be more graduating LAs...to join the other unemployed, recent grads of 2009, 2010 & 2011.

Permalink Reply by steve phillips on March 8, 2012 at 2:15am

Craig, I am confused.  "Someone going to school to better themselves is not worthless"? 

Don't know where to begin with that one!  GEEZ!

 

Is it possible to incur huge debt with little chance to repay could be considered a little unwise?  How in these times is going to school going to "better" any one who owes 100k?

 

Do you know how massive school loan debt is today?  Have you heard of the looming "education bubble"?

 

What happens if the "other shoe" does drop?

 

I hate to think it, I hate to even consider it too, but based on the pattern of the last 10 years, ya think it might?  Maybe...?

 

I applaud your encouragemet Craig, but is that really pratical advice?

 

Permalink Reply by Craig Anthony on March 8, 2012 at 5:04am

Steve – great to hear from you, it’s been a while.

 

Firstly, I stand behind my statement; someone going to school to get an education is not worthless. I learned so much more than just a vocation when I went for my BSLA. There’s more to an education than just graduating and getting a job. Going to college opened my eyes to the world. For me that is priceless.

 

I’m sorry but I don’t live my life worrying about looming bubbles or waiting for the other shoe to drop. Those are things that I have no control over. I live my life doing all I can do today to continue to grow and have a happy life tomorrow.

 

What’s the alternative for young people? They can avoid school, get a low paying job and hang out with their friends talking about how much life sucks. Or they can go school and get a degree in a “sure thing” field that they hate and life will still suck. Or they can give it their best shot studying a field that interest them. Of course they might fail and end up pursuing another field, but at least they have the satisfaction of knowing they let it all hang out and went for it. Besides playing it safe doesn’t always guarantee happiness. Risk is a part of life.

 

I think that my advice is practical because in 4 years no one is offering any better alternatives than doing nothing or going into a field that doesn’t interest you in hopes that it has a rosy future.

Permalink Reply by steve phillips on March 8, 2012 at 8:24pm

Ok, Craig,

You can be tedious, in that it seems like you carelessly scan many posts and are too quick with a rebuttle.

Please re-read my post.  I don't suggest anybody to wait for a shoe to drop and also, you throw the frase "rosey future" in too many of your replies when most are just talkig about a food and a roof.  Thereby maybe that is how you missed the point of my post.  Which is:  although it might be a wonderful and "priceless" experience, Is that reason enough saddle yourself with insumountable debt?  Especially in an enconomy that is very bad and trending even worse?  Enter reality here, nothing rosey about it nor gloomy, just FACT. 

In other words,

You are claiming that is is better to have loved and lost,  and I am claiming plain old, unprotected sex might not be the best idea.

Permalink Reply by Craig Anthony on March 12, 2012 at 9:11am

Steve

 

I’ve been accused more than once of jumping to conclusions, so I took your advice and re-read your post. I still get the same flavor, so I stand behind my post. But what I will do is start reading my own posts so that I don’t become too repetitive. Yeah you’re right I am guilty of saying “rosy future” too much.

 

“…although it might be a wonderful and "priceless" experience, Is that reason enough saddle yourself with insurmountable debt?”

 

Yes, because it’s a priceless experience and it’s one of the many chances that one takes in life. Although my university experience didn’t necessarily prepare me to be best Landscape Architect, it did provide me with a solid foundation of general knowledge to build upon. I gained a world view and most importantly learned how to work with people. Going through a grueling five year LA program gave me toughness and a “can do” attitude that my friends in business management and other schools just didn’t get. While they were getting their solid 8 hours of sleep, I was at the studio most nights. While they were turning in their work and waiting for a grade, I was presenting my work in front of professionals, faculty and fellow students while exhausted and emotionally naked. Oh yeah and then standing there while your critiqued by these guys. Most LA programs instill a sense of toughness in their graduates (or at least the use to).

 

If I had it all to do over knowing what I know now, I would still go out and get that LA degree because the profession still feeds me after 23 years and I’m just a regular guy. If a seasoned LA or LD has 2 ounces of motivation they can find a way to hustle up a few bucks. Knowing this how could I discourage some young person from getting an LA degree?

 

“You are claiming that is is better to have loved and lost, and I am claiming plain old, unprotected sex might not be the best idea.”

 

Huh?

Permalink Reply by mauiBob on March 4, 2012 at 7:45pm

Andrew, "poke and laugh at those of us stupid enough to not leave the profession" Huhh? I'm merely saying there's more to it than you're view on the "inside" or "outside". Just because you're on the "outside" with an LA job doesn't imply lack of hard work or no knowledge in getting clients. This is what your previous statements are suggesting. And don't worry about me; I'm doing quite well. I worry for my former co-workers who haven't been able to find FULL-TIME employment in the profession. And ask yourself, what has ASLA, your national organization done lately? Did they lower the fees for licensure and for the annual conference?

Someone is talking about stock investments? I'm all ears!! Hey, don't blame me if my hunches were right on. I went with my gut feeling 14 years ago and in April of 2009.

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Permalink Reply by steve phillips on March 8, 2012 at 7:45pm

Andrew,

 

I think that more broad question here is about you.  Are YOU an "inny" or an "outty"?

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Permalink Reply by alland on March 4, 2012 at 2:51pm

Where's the work that'll set my hands, my soul free/where's the spirit that'll reign over me/where's the promise from sea to shining sea?

'We Take Care of Our Own'- B. Springsteen.

 

PS I never thought I would relate hard core to Bruce's words of the working class (now despairing)...But now I do.

I really do

Sorry about the politics now I cant help it...

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Permalink Reply by Boilerplater on March 4, 2012 at 4:30pm

I had been meaning to look up the lyrics to that song when I caught the line "From the shotgun shack to the Superdome" and realized there was a big social critique in there to belie the anthemic sound.  I hear ya on the relating thing!

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Permalink Reply by steve phillips on March 8, 2012 at 9:29pm

Boilerplater, you might like these lyrics too, or not...

 

People Have the Power

I was dreaming in my dreaming
of an aspect bright and fair
and my sleeping it was broken
but my dream it lingered near
in the form of shining valleys
where the pure air recognized
and my senses newly opened
I awakened to the cry
that the people / have the power
to redeem / the work of fools
upon the meek / the graces shower
it's decreed / the people rule

The people have the power 


Vengeful aspects became suspect
and bending low as if to hear
and the armies ceased advancing
because the people had their ear
and the shepherds and the soldiers
lay beneath the stars
exchanging visions
and laying arms
to waste / in the dust

 
in the form of / shining valleys
where the pure air / recognized
and my senses / newly opened
I awakened / to the cry

people have the power!

Where there were deserts
I saw fountains
like cream the waters rise
and we strolled there together
with none to laugh or criticize
and the leopard
and the lamb
lay together truly bound
I was hoping in my hoping
to recall what I had found
I was dreaming in my dreaming
god knows / a purer view
as I surrender to my sleeping
I commit my dream to you

People have the power

The power to dream / to rule
to wrestle the world from fools
it's decreed the people rule
it's decreed the people rule

LISTEN
I believe everything we dream
can come to pass through our union
we can turn the world around
we can turn the earth's revolution
we have the power

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