[J. Robert (Bob) Wainner]

No….it’s NOT “all about the money”. But, I totally understand, you have to earn a living.

IMO, the main reason you had so much trouble finding an LA job (between 2008 and 2013) was because, Obama wa our President during that period….it was a difficult time for EVERY Landscape Architect & design firm. If you’re in the LA profession long enough…you’ll experience UPs & DOWNs in our economy. The U.S. economy is doing much better now and unemployment, in spite of the virus scare, is doing very well.

Personally, I still don’t understand WHY anyone would spent $100K and study Landscape Architecture @ a University & then, just throw in the towel after a couple of years. Even though I put in close to 15 yrs. designing for (2) different LA firms (for less than I believe I should have been earning)…I hung in there and was just a “sponge”…learned everything I could from every LA around me. It paid off when I went out on my own…which was 28 yrs. ago & I have MORE than made up for those “too low salaries” from my first 15 years in the LA profession. Sometimes, it just really takes “perseverance” to reach your goals.

Nothing in this LIFE comes easily, at least, nothing worth having. Even if I was SUPER talented with “autoCAD” and had an opportunity (at an earlier age) to join a C.E. firm…..no way. Early on, even while @ Texas A&M, I had a very strong “passion” for Landscape Architecture…now, 43 years later, I have absolutely no regrets.

However, that being said, everyone has to find their own PATH to follow….whatever makes you happy.
Enjoy the “journey”…..times goes very, very fast! GOOD LUCK!

Bob

[J. Robert (Bob) Wainner]

To “bd”…just read your most recent comment.

Well, I definitely “understand” where you’re coming from. I invested (4) years of my life by enlisting in the U.S. Navy (served on board an Aircraft Carrier in the Mediterranean Sea)…so, I could use the G.I. Bill to help me get my (4) year LA degree @ Texas A&M University. I didn’t take out a Student Loan, still, it was a very financially difficult time for my wife & me. I did managed to graduate with ZERO debt, so, that was good. Then, designed for (2) different LA firms for about 14 years (plus 2 yrs. worth of over-time hours)…and the PAY was BAD. I left the 2nd LA firm in 1991 @ age 41…took me 2 yrs. of marketing & taking on every little design job I could get to FINALLY start earning a six figure annual income. Just 2 years after leaving that 2nd LA firm…my annual income went up 5x to 6x what they were paying me.

At the 2nd LA Firm (which specialized in designing Multi-Family Developments…I did gain a great deal of expertise with that type of project (being able to design every aspect of those projects)…so, in 1993, at age 43, I began picking up major Apartment Builder Accounts…and that’s a really great design niche! For the next 15 nonconsecutive years, working on my own and focused primarily on Multi-Family Projects, it was well over six figures every year; But, I was working 10 to 14 hours a day and sometimes 7 days a week.

Note….I think today, for entry level LAs, the starting salaries are around $40,000.00 regardless of what city or State you’re in. And, some cities/States have high cost of living and high State income taxes. To me, those were always important considerations back when I was looking for an LA firm to join.

I think the KEY in Landscape Architecture, really is, getting to the point where you can design “on your own”. I have an LA friend in Florida who (with only 2 years of design practice under a Licensed LA) has his own LA practice…now in his 7th year and doing very well, and is very busy. I have helped him on and off over the years…as I just felt he needed more than JUST (2) years of experience to go it alone….but, it is possible.

I know of a Freelance Website called “UPWORKS”, that you might want to check out. It’s almost FREE to submit proposals for Design work…even for autoCAD work only. There are many Landscape Designers and LAs earning a lot of $$ from that website…UpWorks pays you directly (they take out a percentage of the fee for their profits). But, even you have a FULL-TIME job, you could still earn $$$ from this UPWROKS website @ home. Though, you might need to have “autoCAD” on your home computer. I think the KEY with UPWORKS is to keep your fees as low as you can. Check it out.

Hey, good thing that you can increase your SALARY @ a CE firm by 50%…reading what you’ve written, I think that sounds like the way to go for you, at least for now. You can always “quietly” be on the look out for an LA job…but, unfortunately, LA firms don’t pay all that well…until you have at least 10 yrs. of design experience. STILL, being “freelance” and on your own…IMO, might be a “goal”, because, designing for other people is making THEM wealthy, not you.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob

[J. Robert (Bob) Wainner]

I have read that “Liability Insurance” for Landscape Architects runs around $50.00 per month, but, not sure what all that covers. Need to look at the “details” of a policy…be sure you cover ALL the bases.

I am very close to Retirement, but, since being on my own (Feb. 1991), I never carried any Liability Insurance…..maybe I was just “lucky”. But, I always made sure my plans were very detailed and complete…that I always designed with “safety & liability” in mind.

I can remember one situation about 20 yrs. ago, where it was GOOD that I did NOT have any “Liability Insurance”. I designed a Multi-Family Community in Texas…on one side of the property, up against a parking lot, I designed an 8 Ft. high Retaining Wall. I designed it RIGHT too. On top of that wall, but, set back about 4 Ft. was a 6 ft. high brick screen wall. One day, the RAINS came…big time. Water from an adjacent shopping center flowed down hill straight towards the apartment community (wall) that I designed. Well, the Developer’s “Wall Contractor” did NOT follow my Wall Construction Details…no weep holes!!! So, water built up behind that 8 Ft. high stone retaining wall…and the pressure from the water pushed that stone wall over onto the FRONT HALF of about 12 Cars & Trucks (totaled all 12 vehicles).

Continuing…..A Structural Engineer who lived @ the Apartment Community met with me and reviewed my Wall Construction Details and told me that my Drawings were exactly correct….but, he agreed, the Wall Contractor did NOT follow my Drawings when they build that stone retaining Wall.

I called my Attorney for his advise…because, I was receiving INVOICES from several auto insurance companies for large amounts of money for those totaled vehicles. My Attorney advised me to NOT bad mouth the Developer…just explain to every auto insurance Co., that the Contractor did not follow my Plans, that I was a (1) person LA Firm and that I had ZERO “Liability Insurance”, that the cars were damaged at no fault of my own.

Well, the Developer, Project CE, Wall Contractor and a few others were sued by the auto insurance companies….but NOT ME. They all had “Liability Insurance”, I did not. That Structural Engineer I met told me that I probably did NOT get sued, mostly because, I didn’t have “Liability Insurance”. STILL, there was no fault on my part too.

HOWEVER…I DO think it’s BEST for every Landscape Architect (whether you work on your own OR whether you are a Landscape Architecture Firm)…because, even when it’s NOT necessarily your FAULT, many people who sue…say if they were injured seriously in a Swimming Pool you designed…..many times, the victims will WIN their law suits against you or your LA firm. Yeah, GOOD to PROTECT YOURSELF with “Liability Insurance”.

Good Luck! I’m sure there are MANY Insurance Companies who will sell you a good policy.
Bob

[J. Robert (Bob) Wainner]

I just now GOOGLED “Is there an on-line Landscape Architect’s Contract Document Checklist?”…..and a (14) page LIST came up. It’s very comprehensive….but, includes CE and LA items.

Still…just having a CHECK LIST for Contract Documents…not sure just how much that will help you IF you haven’t gone through the entire “Design Process” for many LA projects. That’s HOW you really LEARN how to design “Contract Documents” and know you covered all the bases.

Bob

[J. Robert (Bob) Wainner]

IMO….LAs and CE’s are like the “oil & water” analogy. VERY, very different professions! Andrew probably understands this better than most of us. LA’s are creative, we actually know how to draw, and just think differently than CE’s think. Civil Engineering is all about “math” and “computer software”. Personally, I wouldn’t in a million years considered being a CE.

CE’s here in The State of Texas are (by law) allowed to produce Planting Plans…which is ridiculous. Unless a CE firm has a qualified LA on staff, they have no business doing “Landscape Architecture” related design work.

I have worked with dozens of CE firms during my LA career…some were good, others were not. I’ve surprisingly come across some CE Grading Plans on large sites that were VERY problematic…where they made my job creating a Landscape Architectural Grading Plan very challenging. And, I can grade ANY site, no matter how flat or steep it is. Then, you have CE attitudes to deal with from time to time…where they look down on Landscape Architects…this is well known throughout the Landscape Architecture profession.

I agree with Andrew…switching from LA (after a 4 yr. LA degree & 4 yrs. of experience) wouldn’t be a very wise move. You need to spend a few more years accumulating solid experience as a Landscape Architect…even if you have to move to a different LA firm to get that experience. IMO, if you’re an LA and you go to work for a CE firm, you will most likely be looked upon as a “second class citizen”…you’re NOT one of them. Just an opinion.

[J. Robert (Bob) Wainner]

To WBS……What do YOU know??? You’re a “Student” in California. IMO, the biggest problem with the “younger generations” is they lack a “work ethic”. They want everything handed to them…even FREE, if they can get it. The point I was making above is….having ONLY (4) years of experience in the field of Landscape Architecture is really STILL at the “entry level”. AND, a lot of LA firms do not have LAs & CEs.

[J. Robert (Bob) Wainner]

Well, considering you ONLY have (4) yrs. of exp. practicing Landscape Architecture…I feel sure you’re NOT making very much $$$. LAs do start out @ pretty low salaries. However, after you have gained substantial experience designing a variety of projects & have 6 to 10 yrs. of design experience…you should have opportunities to earn a higher salary (at the same firm or at a NEW LA job).

However, that being said, I believe that in our profession, the BEST way to earn a TOP annual income is to “go out on your own”…not working for other LA’s. I put in close to (15) yrs. before going out on my own @ age 41…took me (2) yrs. to get my (1) man start-up practice up and running. I found a niche with Multi-Family projects (as I got a ton of experience designing with a Dallas firm for 14 yrs.). Then, was getting well over a 6 figure income for (17) years…before I began to slow down.

I don’t know WHY you’re doing just “autoCAD” drawings of fences and rails??? During my LA career, I have designed Single Family Homes (all sizes and price ranges); Upscale Multi-Family communities in 8 different States; Commercial Office Developments; Hotels; Restaurants; Shopping Centers; University Athletic Facilities; Streetscapes; University Student Apartment Communities @ 8 major Universities…just a wide variety of project types…many interesting projects.

When I began my LA career in 1977, there was no such thing as “autoCAD”…but, even when I started my own practice, I was just too busy to stop and learn “autoCAD”…so, I stayed with what I know I did best “Hand Drawings”. Never had a disappointed client or one that asked for drawings to be on “autoCAD” either. I have designed well over (500) projects to date…all “By Hand”. And, I don’t regret my LA career…it’s been very good to me.

Now, I don’t HAVE to design anything…but, I do continue to design Upscale Residential Projects as I really don’t wish to give up designing just yet.

I would suggest that you at least “consider” looking around at the LA job market out there…look for a descent sized LA firm in a location that’s desirable to you…one where you could “learn & grow” your experience. Then, you could consider “going out on you own”. I have some good LA friends who went on their own…have 5 to 12 LA’s working for them…and I have no doubt that they are sitting on major 7 figure bank accounts. So, I KNOW…it’s a “myth” that you can’t make a seriously good annual income as an LA. I just believe that you probably NEED about (10) yrs. of solid design experience to make that happen for yourself…not just 4 yrs.

IMO, if you abandon you LA career and go to work for a CE firm…you very easily could “forever” be stuck doing “autoCAD” production drawings & zero design…..with no real future.

Good Luck!
Bob

[J. Robert (Bob) Wainner]

Well, IMO, you sure don’t learn HOW in a University LA degree program. Maybe I’m just old school here, but, I believe the best way to learn how to produce professional “Contract Documents” is by working for a descent sized quality Landscape Architecture Firm.

Before I went out on my own @ ag 41, I designed for 2 different LA firms. At the 2nd LA firm, there were 7 LAs total…we grew to about 40 LAs in size. I learned from some very talented and experienced LA’s over those 14 to 15 years. So, when I went out on my own (as a 1 person LA firm), I felt I had the necessary training to design every aspect of every project……because, during the last 5 yrs. in that 2nd LA Firm, I was designing 100% of my projects…always had about 8 projects going at any one time.

Being in that “environment”…around younger and older LA’s just provided me with the skills I needed to move forward…and back then, every drawing was “By Hand”, autoCAD was not being used by LA’s then. And, partly because I had such a very busy LA career, I never did learn autoCAD…I just stayed with “Hand Drawings” for my 43 year LA career. But, I’m Retired now…I could have retired 5 to 8 yrs. ago, but now, @ age 70, I think I deserve to take things slow and get off of my drawing board.

I do have an LA friend who graduated from a University LA program about 13 years ago, but, he/she only worked for a Licensed LA for 2 yrs…then, set up their own private LA firm. IMO, that won’t work, because, you can NOT teach yourself “Landscape Architecture”…or how to produce “Contract Documents”…it’s just not that simple.

I highly recommend going to work for an LA firm…one that would be willing to “mentor” you. It takes time to learn how to design, produce site grading plans/Planting Plans, construction details, design pools & water features, site lighting plans….learn the various computer software programs that most LA firms are using these days. You can’t learn “Contract Documents” in a class room or from a book, IMO.

Good Luck!
Bob

[J. Robert (Bob) Wainner]

OK…..It’s now, Feb. 16, 2020 and I was just looking at the LAND 8 Job Board. I didn’t see more than maybe (2) Landscape Architecture jobs in “LOCATIONS” that would be considered “good locations” IMO.

Go Look. California, New York, Idaho, Maryland, Connecticut…..ALL locations with high cost of living and high State Income Taxes. Plus, most recently in Los Angeles, San Diego, San Francisco and New York City….homelessness and shortage of affordable housing. Not very good “quality of life” situations. Plus, these expensive areas would be very difficult to start a Landscape Architecture Career…if you just graduated from a University.

I would recommend looking on line @ maybe INDEED.com for a job or various other job boards on-line. There ARE better locations to practice Landscape Architecture.

[J. Robert (Bob) Wainner]

IMO….someone needs to mail a copy of this book “Firescaping” to the Governor of California. It’s apparent that California’s environmental policies with regards to stopping the Forest Fires just is NOT working!!!

[J. Robert (Bob) Wainner]

Hi Katherine…..well, I have read that the “seas are rising” very little each year, but, barely enough that you can measure. IMO, the reports that the seas are rising at a rapid rate where you could measure those rises in FEET is just bogus.

I don’t mean to politicalize your “rising seas” statement…but, as I recall, former President Obama was “all in” about Global Warming & Rising Seas. Which makes me wonder WHY would he and his wife purchase an $11 million estate on Martha’s Vineyard that is right on the Atlantic Ocean (I’ve seen photos of that home and property…the home’s finish floor elevation can’t be more than about 5 feet above Sea Level). And, the Obamas also bought (back in 2015) the Beach Front Home in Hawaii ($8 million) that was used in the filming of the TV show “Magnum P.I.”…that home is right down on the water. So, I guess what I’m saying is…..if the seas really are rising and the Obama’s believe that…..WHY would they spend millions of dollars on water front luxury homes?

IMO, I’m not very convinced using city taxpayer money to build recreational amenities in flood zones or low lying areas is a great idea. The grading and drainage is just going to be a problem, eventually…and potentially do damage or destroy these amenities. But, I know, this is done in many, many cities throughout the Nation…so, what do I know???

[J. Robert (Bob) Wainner]

Jeeezzzzzz Nick, get a grip. I’m not going to apologize to you twice. Your points are well taken…..let’s move on, shall we.
Respectfully,
J. Robert (Bob) Wainner

[J. Robert (Bob) Wainner]

Nick…I do apologize. I didn’t intend to offend you…just felt “some” of your comments were uncalled for. And, I know some of mine were too.

I wasn’t able to view any of your projects….though, I wanted to. I’m sure you are a very well qualified “Land Planner”.

Well, I can understand the layoff situation. IMO, during the 8 yrs. Obama was in the WH, the job situation was not very good for many professions…even many design professions.

Well, I think to “some degree” work history does play a role in a designer’s career…but, you certainly have some valid reasons for your working for different design firms. I find way too many young LA’s and designers who don’t put in enough years as an “intern” with an established firm…where they will learn from experienced and talented designers. Many work a few years and think they’re ready to go out on their own…when they just aren’t. IMO, you can’t teach yourself “Landscape Architecture”.

I put in 14 calendar years working for (2) different LA firms (plus, 2 yrs. worth of over-time, before I went out on my own at the age of 41. The experience I gained was extensive…designing a wide variety of projects in multiple States. So, I felt I would be OK on my own. Took 2 years of serious marketing to get my own private practice up and running. And, actually, the majority of LAs in the U.S. are actually “Freelance”, they don’t work for LA firms. And, from a financial view point, working for yourself usually works out a lot better. My annual income jumped 5x to 7x what the Dallas LA firm was paying me and I wasn’t pulling anymore hours working on my own. My own fault, should have gone out on my own a few yrs. earlier. But, I picked up a lot of fantastic experience as I moved on.

Had I had the opportunity, I too would have considered an MLB. That degree would be especially useful should you est. your own design firm.

[J. Robert (Bob) Wainner]

It really wouldn’t matter, Andrew. We have all been criticized here on LAND 8 from time to time or another for our comments here. Just differences of opinions.

LAND 8 says there are 1.5 Million Members…..but, I just counted ONLY (60) members who were active here on LAND 8 during the past (60) days. Members should get involved, but, they don’t. There are several BLOGS and many FORUMS…that members could comment on…but, few members get involved.

My comment above…was because, I believe IMO, that member’s comment was being unfair to Senior LA’s. And, he’s a “Land Planner”…guess he’s an “expert” about Landscape Architecture……not. My opinion.

[J. Robert (Bob) Wainner]

Nick…I personally find your comments a bit insulting & unprofessional. Wow, you must have been doing a lot of “clean up autoCAD work” in 9 different jobs over the past 15 years, huh.

When you graduate with an LA degree in 1977, like I did, there was no such thing as “autoCAD”…and many LA graduates never made it, because, they didn’t have descent drawing, graphic or architectural drawing skills. I did. I took my first Architectural Drafting Course the 1st semester of the 7th Grade & made an “A” in the course. Took 4 more similar courses before I finished High School…along with 3 Art Courses. Plus, 3 semesters @ The University of North Texas in Denton…more Graphic Design & Architectural Drawing Courses…made “A’s” in all of the courses too. After 4 yrs. in the Navy…an LA degree @ Texas A&M…then, 14 yrs. with 2 LA firms before going out on my own @ age 41.

Now, at age 70, I have managed to design close to 600 projects in 14 different States. Yes, I may be “old school”, and never learned autoCAD (way too busy)…and worked as a one person LA firm since 1991. My Final Contract Documents absolutely matched up with my Preliminary Color Renderings and Prelim. sketches I presented to my clients. Never rec’d a complaint from a client or any contractors about the quality of my designs or the accuracy of my work. No other designers had to go in an “clean up my drawings” as you mentioned. I even had a couple of Civil Engineers and Architects ask me if my Final Contract Documents were “autoCAD”? And, I explained to them, “No, I have produced all of my drawings “by hand”…they really couldn’t see the difference. I could have easily retired several years ago…but, I chose to remain actively designing as I have always had a passion for creativity, design & graphic design.

But, I have personally seen LA portfolios of LAs who have 15, 20 and more experienced that are just “seriously weak”. Poor graphics, autoCAD drawing with poor line weights where you could read or understand the drawings…and just poor quality designs as well.
I don’t know WHY some very experienced LAs have been able to practice for so many years, I can only speak for myself.

Since you have “zero” samples of your Design Portfolio available for us to see…we really can’t see your work. We just know that you have designed for 9 different design firms over the past 15 years.

There are MANY very experience “older” Landscape Architects out there producing outstanding projects…most do know autoCAD, sketchUP and a variety of other computer software programs…and many also have outstand “hand drawing” and “graphic design” skills. Some of the most talented LAs in the World have 30 to 50 yrs. of experience and they deserve a lot of respect for what they have accomplished during their careers.

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