Dutch ideas about traffic

Couldn’t agree more. It is difficult to understand why something so reasonable is not used on regular base. Why all this big fuzz with either removing all the cars or securing safety with new traffic lanes for bikers and pedestrian and making everyday life so difficult and open space so unpelasetn to stay in? I gues it is how far the majority of people and decision makers came by now, At least in Slovenia also the fact that traffic planners are quite traditional in the perspective is the fact.

i like the idea that the ‘natural’ speed for humans is 20 mph – that would save a lot of gas..But I just hate this shared space stuff – could not link to the article Roland was siting, so read Salon interview, “why don’t we do it in the road..” The final insult, I think, is ‘shared space’ probably saves the developer tons of money..
But I want kids in the streets, safe by a separated grade-changed, barriered space, and able to bike to the store at night, at all speeds..This cow-towing to vehicles has got to stop..Shared space to me is a developers answer..I don’t even like round-abouts..I do like the four-way stop – that necessitates a lot of interaction to negotiate..
Like I said before, the bikers are actually against separated lanes, at any speed, and fighting separation..obstructing it..

RJoland, I have been in planning, commercial site plan review for 20 years, and the concept of shared space has nothing to do with the 50 foot wide road in huge residential developments in the middle of nowhere …Please! More respect, please..In my experience in planning in virginia and new york, everyone has heard of woonerfs, (at least since I got my first planning job in 1991), and they love them.. In plan..there is nothing new to that idea, as you can see how it is institionalized in the Hamilton-Baille article..Institutionalized in Britain and Denmark, germany – it just isn’t new..
I think developers love them because the word just saves them money, right off the bat..

As for warped view of cyclists, please listen or read about the LA canyon road rage against cyclists case – and read the comments made on the articles (on NPR< is a good one) and you will see intense amounts of anger and frustration on both sides….My view is simply that there IS conflict – not that bikers are wrong, just equally as guilty as cars.. I am not against bikers..I am just saying there IS a huge conflict, and secondly, a lot of bikers (including yourself, it seems?) have a huge attitude against separated lanes, they want bikes on the road..
I think they are fighitng against their own best interests, at a time when we possibly could get some really outrageious bike lanes, for obvious reasons – TARP money, green initiatives..

I wonder if the reason bikers want to be on streets is that it is perceived to be safer from potential assailants. That is, when you are on a bike path that is isolated or hidden from streets, are potential attackers, thieves, perverts etc. more likely to be there? At least if you are along a road, you are more likely to be seen if you’ve been injured or attacked. I worked on a path for the D&R canal State Park in NJ. Most of the path is very popular, running along a historic canal. Its used by joggers, bycyclists, dog walkers. The part I worked on, which was a final connection in the system, goes hrough rather depressed sections of the City of Trenton. The few miles in the city get very little use by bikers and are more trash strewn. Residents of nearby areas use it as a footpath. I rode on it a few times with out incident, but I’m a 6′ male. I wouldn’t recommend it to people who are easily intimidated.

Speaking of Woonerfs, I’ve been to Holland several times as I had relatives there. I’ve known people who lived near wonerfs so I experienced them firsthand. The thing that is worth nothing is that the traffic volume is so low that I would not be concerned about kids playing in one. Of course, drivers look out for bikes there so much more. Its so much a part of the culture. You’ll see parents toting kids to school in a bike seat regularly. When I visited my grandparents when I was 10, they rented a bike for me and let me loose on the town. I had the best time! Looking back on it, its somewhat amazing that they would think I would be safe in an unfamiliar town where I could only speak a few words in Dutch. That takes in enormous amount of faith in one’s fellow burghers. Bike lanes are commonly separated, but they are close to roads. I think in a way kids there have a lot more personal freedom due to bike safety. One of the more remarkable things I saw was a kid on a bike pulling a trailer loaded with a wind surfboard. He was on a path miles from the nearest beach. His whole recreational outing, from getting there to enjoying it, would be carbon free!

I tried to promote this kind of thing a bit when I worked for the NJDOT, but the reaction I got was basically like, “Well, our mission is to decide what to plant around the highways. Why should we do anything different?” And landscape architects wonder why their viewpoint is so marginalized. Yeah, I’ve experienced a string of disillusioning events in my LA career!

Are there two separate arguments going on here- new development versus retrofits?

It seems to me that in retrofits a shared space concept would be much more feasible than somehow reallocating separate corridors specifically for one transit type or another.

But in new development, we have the chance to allocate and build right the first time around. Maybe we should be concerned with separate bike and rail corridors in addition to traditional roads. On the other hand, we have the opportunity to influence preference by offering choices, safe shared spaces, increased density, multiuse development etc. This seems like the perfect time to introduce home zones and extremely slow speed limits to increase awareness and the appeal of cycling or walking rather than zipping by happily on a separated road where bikers are never visible.

In order for any “alternative” transportation concept to take off, it has to respond to people’s needs. Is it possible to provide separated networks of bike paths to and from work areas, homes, grocery stores and entertainment; or is it more feasible to make existing networks between these areas safe and appealing to cyclists and pedestrians?