Sustainability: Europe vs. U.S.?

[Claudia Dinep]

EVERYONE has an opinion about sustainability!

Question: What is the current “state of landscape sustainability” in the U.S. vs. other parts of the world?

— In what ways is Europe more sustainable?
— In what ways is the United States more sustainable?

We’re interested in how the whole sphere of cultural expression (i.e. landscape design, public policy, historic preservation, ecology
& conservation, technology, politics, transportation, economics,
food, lifestyle etc.) reflects environmental sustainability.

Please weigh in!

[Roland Beinert]

There was an interesting blog entry on this on the Original Green: http://www.originalgreen.org/OG/Blog/Entries/2009/12/31_the_Green_Country_to_the_Green_City.html
It’s hard to really say any of this for sure, beacuse I’ve only been to a few places in Europe and that was a long time ago. But, in general, I think the Europeans do a better job of balancing the different types of transportation. They have better mass transit and better bike plans. It’s not all about cars.
I remember when I stayed with my grandmother for a summer in a tiny town called St. Jakob in Austria, I learned that the residents were required to keep a compost pile in their yards. That may have changed, though, since I was there about 15 years ago.
Americans may do a better job of wildlife preservation, but it’s really hard to say.

[Claudia Dinep]

Thx Roland for your comment and the link which I haven’t seen before. I agree, there are some generalities to be made for sure.

It’s claimed that the U.S. did a better job with (and were the originators of) preserving land in perpetuity as was done by Roosevelt with the first National Parks etc. Whether they were the first I’m not sure, but certainly untouched wilderness is valued in the U.S.. It’s part of our ‘national treasure’ so to speak.

In some parts of Europe (where the ‘national treasures’ are integrated with hundreds of years of habitation) there are, as you mention, tightly controlled policies regarding ‘behavior’, such as waste disposal, development restrictions, and so on.

I’m interested in hearing more about policies like the compost pile requirement in Austria. Similarly, my Swiss grandmother paid more than 1 CHF per bag of household trash – a policy implemented to reduce waste (and to encourage composting!) I think these policies raise the awareness of sustainable living within the general population. Could that work in the U.S.?

[Rob Halpern]

“Could that work in the U.S.?”

I think that rather depends on whether the “Tea Party” movement is a media fad or the will of the people.

[Claudia Dinep]

That’s true Rob, the ‘political temperament’ of a country drives what citizens are willing to do for the environment. This last year I’ve been living overseas and have to confess I haven’t followed much on the Tea Party movement, but I suspect the Party would not favor public policy that curbs individual ‘rights’ to balance environmental use/protection. Is that your estimation?

[Trace One]

I don’t believe the ‘tea party’ knows what it is, besides against Obama because he is black..I think Rob was making a joke? The Tea Party is something not to be taken seriously, until they take themselves seriously, instead of speaking and behaving like buffoons.

That said, Republicans say they want smaller government, and have been working assiduously towards certain aspects of that idea for years (while completely contradicting themselves in other ways – Bush presided over huge medicaid expansion – gov. actually usally expands under Repubs – as it did under both Bushes and Reagan..) But they do not want the EPA requlations, financial regulations,do not want the government to help the poor, do not want to preserve the environment. So they represent 40% of the Senate – it is up to you to decide who is the real america..As far as I am concerned, Roosevelt’s New Deal is the real america, I think the majority of us want a single payer system of health care, want our water and food inspected and tested, want the environment preserved, want regulations on the stock market to be meaningful and to work.

You are onto a really good question, though – i think one could spend a lot of time researching the differences in European approach and American approach..They do have better transportation, but I have always felt that is a function of a development pattern that was set up when the fastest humans could go was on a horse. We do not have that advantage. There was a recent article in NYT detailing how Europe burns trash, but environmentalists in America have stopped that idea from even being on the table, as an energy source.
I can remember my relatives in Germany peel the foil off beer bottles before putting them in their recycle bins! American barely even get anything IN the recycle bin, much less participate in processing recyclables..
And then your question could go into what is the definition of sustainable, of course..I am sure it would be easy to find carbon footprint comparisons between us and them!
Good question..Looks like a good topic for a paper.

[Roland Beinert]

I don’t think it’s just extremist conservatives working against that sort of policy in the US. I think a lot of people in the US don’t really understand composting. If you explain a compost pile or worm bin to them, they often just say “EEEEEEEWWW!”, even if it would probably keep their garbage from smelling and attracting fruit flies. They just don’t like thinking about that sort of thing. So part of it might just be education. They need to know what it could do for them. Waste management, food production and other things have been out of sight and out mind for a lot of Americans for a long time.

[Claudia Dinep]

Thanks, Trace One, for the heads up on the trash incinerator article – just read it. It’s interesting that the U.S. state and municipal governments are shying away from it because of public perception and difficulty finding locations for it. It’s interesting to note that new environmental laws in Europe forced the switch to new, cleaner energy-producing trash management technology. It was not left up to the private sector to decide – it was a European Union determination based on spatial constraints to accommodating landfills and their Kyoto Protocol goals.

Interesting comment regarding transportation development patterns. When trains replaced horses maybe it was seen as ‘improvement’ but today, trains replacing cars are seen as limiting freedom…

In terms of willingness and perhaps, habit, (or is it common sense?) it seems like European sustainability (in its broadest sense) is ahead of the U.S. in many ways. (I’m thinking of the Kyoto Protocol (willingness) and using public transportation (habit) and composting (common sense)).

It would be interesting to hear from some Europeans on this!

[Trace One]

Claudia, thank you for listening..My comment on development patters was more of a comment on actual patterns than on perceptions of speed.. Good public transit systems benefit from dense city centers that are walkable. These town patterns on the european landscape make it easy to impose a public transit system.. We have a development pattern that to a large extent is based around the car, spread out, so it is difficult to impose public transit on top of it – believe me I know – I take the bus in Fresno, Ca. and this city as most american cities, is NOT designed to get you anywhere on a bus..It is the actual on- the- ground development pattern that makes the public transit in europe easier..
I am sure you understood what I was saying, I just felt the need to clarify!
Good luck, lots of psychological, sociological, environmental, structural…lots of different considerations. sort of reminds me of the old ‘compare and contrast’ essays in english class – ‘compare and contrast Juliets death to the death of Phineas in A Separate Peace..” hee hee..
and yes, hopefully you will get some respondents from across the pond!

[Rob Halpern]

Not a joke, really. Apparently adherents of the “Tea Party” philosophy (?!) oppose taxation and government control. I am not clear what the difference is from Libertarians, but my point is that IF they represent more than the privileged few (as recent polls suggest they are) then how can the US Government accomplish imposing taxes, restrictions, etc. to foster “sustainability”?

But perhaps another way to look at your question is to look at specific areas, cities, etc. in the US rather than the entire country. Portland, OR comes to mind…

[Trace One]

Rob, I still think you are kidding..The “Tea bag Party” is incoherent – accepting medicare, as most older white people do, but objecting to ‘big government’. It’s a joke..There is a far more insidious, well-subsidized busness lobbying group that the GOP represents, that sends these people their buttons and t–shirts….Tea bagging is not worth two minutes..The GOP, however, has almost brought down the country (as well as some Dems, yes..)..Tea baggers object to gov. but don’t care that the Iraq war has enriched Halliburton and Blackwater, and killed hundreds of thousands of people..they don’t make any sense at all..

You need to look at the puppet masters, not the puppets.
Like good old Senator Inhofe and his anti-global warming junk..He is a puppet..

[Rob Halpern]

Trace, I wasn’t defending them or extolling them: just pointing out a factor in whether the US will do what it takes to require sustainable practices. The “don’t fence me in” ethos runs deep in the US history and psyche. If we want Change, we need to understand where people are

[Trace One]

Rob, the thing is, the Tea baggers don’t have ANYTHING to do with the ‘don’t fence me in’ ethos..It IS a nice song, isn’t it….They are racists…The ‘don’t fence me in’ is much more personified by the ACLU. We have the bill of rights.We don’t want to be wiretapped, tortured, have our land grabbed for big business, or have insurance agents run our health care..So the ‘dont fence me in” (oh, give me land, lots of land..) is much more of the Teddy Roosevelt National Parks and Theo Roosevelt New Deal tradition, than it is of the ‘teabaggers.” I am not sure what you are reading, but as far as I am concerned, the teabaggers are racists old white people who don’t want gays to marry..It has NOTHING to do with big gov – they don’t care about the Bush Medicare expansion or the ruse of the Iraq war, and the national debt that resulted from this gift to private industries – they do n’t care about that..They care that Obama is black. That’s about it..
The ‘don’t fence me in’ are Glenn Greenwald, Bill Moyers, the ACLU, Democracy Now..real democrats..

It is the REQUIRED separation of Church and State that GIVES the Church their freedoms..It is the REQUIRED equal rights, required government regulations and programs, that give us our freedoms..
The Teabaggers are just a bunch of old bored white racist nuts..Has nothing to do with ‘don’t fence me in’ at all..Half of them are protesting while on disabilty or retirement pensions! Just silly…don’t fence me in is far deeper in our system – it is Thomas Jefferson, and the ‘wall between church and state’. That is ‘don’t fence me in.’

[Roland Beinert]

Guess my reply was too boring. Let me rephrase:
I think a lot of Tea Party participators in the US don’t really understand composting. If you explain a compost pile or worm bin to Tea Partiers, they often just say “EEEEEEEWWW!”, even if it would probably keep their garbage from smelling and attracting fruit flies and lowering their land value. Tea Partiers just don’t like thinking about that sort of thing. So part of it might just be education. Tea Partiers need to know what it could do for them. Waste management, food production and other things have been out of sight and out mind for a lot of Tea Party participators for a long time.

[Robert Schäfer]

dear Roland,
the question is not about doing a better job than others. What we all need is doing a good job. It may start with the compost and bike lanes and does not end with sustainable sites. We do have to change the way of living on many levels. If you have a look in European books from 1920 or so and later, city planning, housing, ecology, ecological engineering you will be astonished and ask why all those ideas were skipped later. To show how broad the field is nowadays we just published Topos 70 on Sustainability. Have alook, if you want and if you do not mind me promoting my own journal;-)

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