Landscape Architecture for Landscape Architects › Forums › STORY BOARD › HOUSTON, TEXAS – Flooding & Drainage Design – August 28, 2017
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Jamie Chen.
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August 28, 2017 at 8:08 pm #150824
Jamie ChenParticipantIn 2016 Houston’s local newspaper was already reporting the consequences of the decimation of Houston’s wetlands.
By the time it became necessary for a developer to hire civil engineers, it is too late in the process. They should NEVER have touched that land. Not bought it, parceled it, filed it at whatever city/county departments. They chose to funnel human lives onto dangerous ground. They chose to speculate on low land. That’s blood money.
Nobody had the political will to say to developers AND ignorant civilian homebuyers that this was hazardous ground, unfit for human habitation.
Houston itself HAS NO ZONING. When it is allowed to build anything anywhere, people WILL. And then as a consequence, the lives of people who don’t know any better, who spent who knows how much of their lives working for wages to pay for it all… it’s gone.
That’s what happened and that’s how it is. Until the states on the Gulf take a good hard look at themselves and actively save lives by telling speculators/developers NO, not on THIS ground, this will continue to happen.
August 29, 2017 at 12:31 am #150823
Andrew Garulay, RLAParticipantI think we might need to talk to architects about widening doorways so that some landscape architects can fit their heads through them. There is 50″ of rain. You can design drainage all you want, but even the rivers can’t drain fast enough. You can’t drain to a place that is already filled with water that is higher than what you are draining.
I am not a Civil Engineer worshipper, but in what world do landscape architects have more drainage education and knowledge than civil engineers?
I don’t know if Civil Engineers failed in Houston or not, but do you really believe that if the drainage design had been turned over to Landscape Architects it would have been better?
REALLY!
August 29, 2017 at 1:45 am #150822
J. Robert (Bob) WainnerParticipantI think “Jamie” made some very good points with her comments!
Houston is famous for NOT having Zoning Laws. So, Developers will literally build anything anywhere. Unreal. So, that group, IMO, is partially to blame here.
And, I know that Civil Engineers are bound by the same code of ethics that “Licensed Landscape Architects” are….to always “protect the safety, health and welfare of the public”.
Just to repeat myself…..it just seems to me….that the City of Houston Leaders (politicians) and City Civil Engineers & Planners…..dropped the ball. Other cities in Texas, like San Antonio, re-designed the “Riverwalk” project (that was once just a river that ran thru the center of the City)…and turned it into not only a tourist attraction for the City of San Antonio…but, also, a method of “flood management”.
And, I realize that planning for a 50 inch rain event is not really “feasible”…..but, City Leaders who KNOW the city…..KNOW the areas that are most likely to flood…..every time it rains. So, when you have a Hurricane heading in your direction……if you KNOW your City’s Drainage System will be a serious “issue” for the citizens……I think, those City Leaders should take the situation very seriously and take ACTION.
You would “think”….that after all that has taken place with the 50 inch rain and major flooding in the Houston area……that The City Of Houston would FINALLY begin to take serious measures to control development in the City…..re-evaluate the City’s Drainage System…..and start passing effective Zoning Laws.
Like the saying goes……It’s OK to make mistakes, just try to NOT make the SAME mistake twice. WHEN will HOUSTON learn? How many more Billions of dollars in property losses and how many more deaths caused by Floods will it take before action is taken for the FUTURE of the citizens of Houston?
August 30, 2017 at 12:38 pm #150821
Andrew Garulay, RLAParticipantMost communities have a Comprehensive Plan that is developed as a big picture of how to shape the community in many ways including physically. That sets the stage for all of the many boards and departments to focus on. Each board and department does their thing, …. each smaller box has to fit in the bigger box. There are a lot of constraints and limitations added on to each smaller box.
You can’t blame a developer for building in an area that is presented as a place to develop. You can’t blame an engineer that has to design his drainage to the budget of the developer who hired him/her and the minimum standards set forth by the city/county/state.
These things are often not as simple as they look.
The biggest problems usually arise from the Comprehensive Plan itself if the community is sensitive to “over regulation”, or if there are high co$ts for things that are invisible to much of the community. Politicians don’t like to be seen spending billions to on dams when no flood disasters happened in decades vs. being on TV cutting a ribbon at a new community center and skate park.
This, and the fact that Houston (and Phoenix) is the poster child for urban sprawl may be a result of politicians not wanting to “burden the economy” with regulation. I live in Massachusetts where there is a strong tendency to over regulate, but I also have lived in Idaho where it was the opposite. I did some projects in a county where there was no zoning and no building code – believe me, you don’t want to buy a house there. You have to strike a balance and that balance is going to be different in every community.
Bob, you have never given me the impression that you were for over regulation. Everything is a trade off. Houston may want to allow development of low lands so there is cheaper housing available and someone wants to accept the risk to have low cost housing. Other communities are called snobs because they regulate the cost of housing upward, but the community is safer. You can’t have it both ways. You can only strike a balance that matches the attitude of the community.
August 30, 2017 at 6:38 pm #150820
J. Robert (Bob) WainnerParticipantI think we all understand that our cities and communities DO need some “regulation & zoning”…just has to happen.
As an LA who has designed a very “wide variety” of project types (not just residential projects), I have had to deal with DRAINAGE issues on a large scale hundreds of times….as large as 70 acre properties…and provided “Site Grading Plans” on over 500 projects. But, I have learned that the Developers, CEs & Architects take the lead with these projects. However, the City Leaders (politicians) SHOULD be ensuring that the overall City Drainage Master Plan takes into account, FUTURE growth. I’m not sure WHY any City allows residential or commercial developments to occur near rivers, lakes, creeks….especially, when “history” has shown that those areas have flooded in the past.
I’m all for every community having low income housing…..but, that still doesn’t justify building those housing communities in flood plains. Every family should believe that the home they purchase was built in a “safe” location.
It just appears to ME, that the city leaders of Houston don’t want to turn down any “tax revenues” they’ll receive from developments…..so, this is a city that is just way to lax with creating regulations to prevent over-building that would have a “negative” impact on the existing drainage system.
So, I really don’t believe just upgrading the “Drainage Master Plan” to meet today’s needs will work. The City (and surrounding communities) will need to legislate some zoning and measures that prevent building in low lying areas along with over-building.
I agree, there needs to be a “balance” of zoning and regulations in every city….but, bottom line is to keep the citizens safe.
August 31, 2017 at 12:12 pm #150819
Andrew Garulay, RLAParticipantYou are making my point. It is much more to do with the opportunities developers have to exploit holes in regulations than it is to do with those hired by them to do their design work whether they are landscape architects, civil engineers, or something else.
The development business is, whether we like it or not, very sensitive to controlling costs. It is competitive. They will almost always go to the minimum standards of design and exploit whatever ways they can in going through the regulating bodies. You seldom see trees planted 20′ apart on a commercial project if the minimum requirement is 30′. You won’t see a drainage design for a 50 year event if the standard is a 25 year event.
It is flat out the city regulations that drive everything and it is the community that either lacks participation in the comprehensive planning, or is anti-regulation, or has tasked incompetent people to set those regulations, or has incompetent or agenda driven people overseeing the implementation of those regulations on the regulatory boards or in the field.
August 31, 2017 at 11:21 pm #150818
J. Robert (Bob) WainnerParticipantYes, Andrew……I think you and I are in total agreement with this “Drainage” problem in Houston, Texas.
What’s really sad….is that, I think this will just continue to occur in the FUTURE. I seriously doubt that The City Of Houston will make the necessary changes to the Drainage Master Plan and limit growth in the Houston area.
I also believe that the Mayor of Houston made a mistake….by not recommending that people (who have the financial means) to evacuate the City far to the North. I think there have been 18,000 water rescues.
I just believe that EVERY U.S. City that is vulnerable to Hurricanes really should be planning for these events. I realize, that planning for a 500 yr. rain – flood event (like they’re calling this one) is really not very practical to plan for….but, it’s just obvious to me, that The City Of Houston just isn’t doing enough.
Right now, out in the Atlantic is Hurricane IRMA…..and it appears that it very well could make landfall in the U.S. Hopefully not….we’ll see. Then, we’ll have to see IF the area that is hit has handled their “Drainage” issues better than Houston?
September 1, 2017 at 8:00 pm #150817
J. Robert (Bob) WainnerParticipantContinuing with this story……..Sept. 1, 2017.
Today, the news reported that the Houston Army Corp of Engineers were going to OPEN the flood gates of a major reservoir……which, will cause already flooded neighborhoods to flood……once again. And, the water had been receding to the point where many of these homeowners were on their way back to check on damage to their homes. VERY unhappy home owners.
WHY……can the Civil Engineers working for the Army Corp of Engineers get the “calculations” right? I researched the salary range for CE’s who work for the Army Corp of Engineers…….the Management positions pay $120k to over $145k annually.
I would THINK…..that those “reservoirs” are kept low enough…..in anticipation of yet another Hurricane that could hit the Houston area during this Hurricane season…as we are only half way thru this years’ Hurricane season. But, I realize, that water is used to provide drinking water, irrigation water, etc for area homes and businesses…so, there has to be a “balance”.
The news stated…..100,000 Houston area homes were flooded out. Unbelievable.
September 7, 2017 at 2:26 pm #150816
Dave McCorquodaleParticipant…and then there’s this little gem:
Our collective attention span, coupled with our acceptance of mediocre politicians, is to blame for a significant amount of the flooding in Houston.
Sadly, we still seem to prefer politics over science…
September 7, 2017 at 7:34 pm #150815Anonymous
InactiveI AM A LAND PLANNER IN HOUSTON AND I HAVE DESIGNED SUBDIVISIONS AND MASTER PLANNED COMMUNITIES IN HOUSTON FOR FIVE YEARS.
WE HAD OVER FIFTY INCHES OF RAIN!!!!!!!WE ARE STILL FIGURING OUT A TON OF THINGS LIKE HOW TO GET TO WORK IN THE MORNING!!!!
I ALSO HAD TO EVACUATE MY APARTMENT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AT 2 AM BECAUSE TWO RESERVOIRS (BOTH OF WHICH WERE DESIGNED DECADES BEFORE I WAS BORN) DECIDED TO BE RELEASED BEHIND MY APARTMENT OF 5 YEARS. AND YES, I DESIGN DRAINAGE EASEMENTS TOO AS PART OF MY JOB. DID I PLAN THIS? HELL NO.
I HAD 6 DAYS WITH NO POWER, AND NOW THE LOCAL STREET IN FRONT OF MY APARTMENT IS A MAJOR THOROUGHFARE. I HAVE TO WALK HOME WHICH IS THREE MILES AWAY BECAUSE THE ROADS ARE THAT SCREWED UP. IT WILL TAKE WEEKS TO REPAIR. THERE IS A LIKELYHOOD OF MOSQUITO INFESTION AND A LOT OF WATERBORNE AND AIRBORNE ILLNESS COMING UP NEXT THAT WE HAVE TO PUT WITH.
SO BEFORE ANY OF YOU JERKS POINT THE FINGER SHOW SOME GODDAM SYMPATHY AND CONCERN FOR YOUR OWN BRETHERN.BECAUSE IT COULD EASILY HAPPENED TO ANY OF YOU!!
ON TOP OF WORK I AM ALSO JUGGLING A CERTIFICATION IN PROJECT MANAGEMENT (PMP) AND I WAS ABLE TO ATTEND BOTH ONLINE CLASSES LAST WEEK AND STAY ON TOP OF HOMEWORK. IT HAS BEEN VERY HARDTO DEAL WITH WORK, STUDY, AND NOW A HURRICANE RECOVERY.
SHAME ON ALL OF YOU ESPECIALLY THE COCKY OP. I LOST ALL RESPECT FOR YOU YEARS AGO NOW YOU ARE JUST A GODDAM CANTERKOUS PAIN IN THE ASS!!!!
September 7, 2017 at 7:48 pm #150814
Dave McCorquodaleParticipantThanks for the all caps, really helps convey that this thread makes you mad. Here’s a thought– don’t read the thread, or move on and ignore it if it bothers you. But you being out of your apartment really doesn’t matter to the discussion at hand. Again, if it’s a little too close to home for you right now, don’t have the discussion.
But suggesting that everyone who was affected should be made physically and emotionally whole before it’s appropriate to ask questions about why it happened is ridiculous. And yep…I don’t fault you for doing what you need to do to make a living, but sprawling subdivisions in the region are MOST DEFINITELY TO BLAME AS WELL FOR FLOODING! (Sorry, I see the allure of the all caps thing, now).
And quit whining about the traffic in front of your apartment and your terrible commute. It’s Houston. You should have figured that out 5 years ago…
September 7, 2017 at 7:58 pm #150813Anonymous
InactiveCommunities today have far more strict detention requirements. They are designed outside of 500 year floodplains, if not more. Most of the flooding is occurring in areas within the center of the city in older neighborhoods that are within the 100 year floodplain much of which was designed from the 1950s to the 1980s. The simple solution would be condemning vast tracks of land in the city center and retrofitting the rest with infrastructure including underground detention and cisterns This is not economically feasible. It is highly likely that people displaced by this last weeks flood will move out even farther into the outlying suburbs along the Grand Parkway and beyond, making the problems worse. Tens of thousands of people (myself included) will likely leave entirely before the City even considers moving its development code into zoning. There is not a history of zoning in place, but there is a likelihood of density and height restrictions on permitted uses.
Is that better?
September 7, 2017 at 10:05 pm #150812
Dave McCorquodaleParticipantSorry for acting like a jerk. I appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective. I don’t agree with some of the conclusions, but you’re not beating us over the head for raising the issue.
I didn’t flood–I live 60 miles or so north of downtown. But many clients (who live around the I-10 & BW8 area, did. They flooded within 4-5 years of building 1.5 million dollar houses. It all sucks, for sure.
Full disclosure–I’m a politician. Local city council. And it makes me get a little crazy in city council meetings every time I hear a new development “needs no detention, because of proximity to Lake Conroe.” I understand county regulations, along with the phrase “minimum requirements” enough to know that it’s just not enough. We have to address things differently.
Again, my response to your post is embarrassing. Shouldn’t have said it, period. I apologize to you. Thank you for not taking my same approach to the discussion.
Dave
September 7, 2017 at 10:53 pm #150811Anonymous
InactiveThank you for saying that.
I do want to emphasize a few other things unique to Houston and its metro area.
1. Streets are designed here to flood. I never understood this (but I’m a Chicago native where streets are meant to be plowed). Maybe it’s part of the history of this town that goes back to the 19th century.
2. The region is flat as a pancake coupled with clay soil, which creates a lot of standing water.
3. Houston should have never been built where it is located. It was centered around an oil well near nothing, grew up after a hurricane leveled Galveston, and exploded with the advent of air conditioning. Even without the air pollution, there is just an untold number of allergens, many of them undocumented, that wreak havoc on native Houstonians. You would think that after a few decades the locals would have a better resistance or else why would anyone settle in this part of the state.
4. Remember, Houston (and Texas) provided steady employment to hundreds of thousands of people when many of your own home states were struggling during the recession! That’s why I’m here because there wasn’t much else for a planner with only a bachelors living up north. We are still the oil and gas capital for better or worse. I wouldn’t pick this location for anything, but then again the oil and gas companies aren’t moving anything soon, so here we are. Steady employment. I also saw my annual compensation double in 5 years and I made the cut into management as a non-engineer in an engineering firm. I couldn’t do that even in a healthy time for a much more desirable city.
Elected and appointed officials guide the vision for their communities. Whether it is north of you or down along the coast, I’ve never had an impression of any true progressive community implementing any NEW development pattern. We are conservative in every sense of the word, and that means conventional subdivision design. It will be business as usual. There will still be long lines of petitioners asking for deed restrictions and variances at every plan commission in every community. Heads of flood management district will point the fingers at us developers. We point the fingers back at them. And both parties will chuck the climate change variable. New office parks get built, which bring in more jobs, which brings in more demand for single-family homes, which sprawl out further and further from the city core, making matters worse.
I don’t think there is a solution. I’m just offering a forecast from experiencing it first hand. I don’t have regrets for the work I did. It’s efficient. It meets market demands and the sites drain well after major storm events. It doesn’t violate the health safety or general welfare of the site.
I see a tiny silver lining (in land use law of all things). Recently, flooded homeowners filed a class action lawsuit (likely an inverse condemnation) against the Army Corps of Engineers created by the flooding of the Addicks and Barker Reservoirs (which has made national headlines). An inverse condemnation is a taking (in this case flooding by a drainage district or public agency) but fails to provide just compensation to the private owner under the 5th Amendment. Due to the enormity of the impacts and property loss, I wouldn’t be surprised if this takings case goes all the way to the Supreme Court. For land planning that could set any number of precedents from just compensation to enabling acts for flood control districts. Just my two cents.
September 14, 2017 at 4:24 am #150810Tara Klein
Participanthttps://www.texastribune.org/2017/09/13/follow-conversation-houstons-flood-czar/
It all boils down to money folks! Those of us who live in Houston and practice here daily should be at the forefront of this conversation. And yes- I have pulled off of many social media sites due to the ridiculous statements being posed at Houston including one article posted the Tuesday after the floods by Texas A&M’s LAUP department. Can we come up for air first before the folks in California and the rest of the world start pointing the finger at our lack of zoning codes being the problem? There is a bigger problem that no one seems to have a solution for and its money. As mentioned in the “landscapeplanner” commented most of these areas were built and developed well before a “planned community” in outskirts of Harris County was even imagined. The 610 loop was the suburbs and since everyone who’s anyone wants to have job security they packed up and headed down to Houston from all over the country. We have a huge population and lots of land– and lots of cheap land that they have acres and acres of detention basins on. Most of which designers are trying to turn these basins -a functioning civil infrastructure- into a park because when it isn’t in use as they were in Harvey they look like a big waste of space. But when you get 50″ of rain that waste of space is your best ally. (this is when you pull out a measuring tape and mark off 50″ and think off how fast it must have come up in 3 days of just rain+ wind that didn’t stop. Being 62″ myself– 50″ is a lot! Read articles from scientists that will tell you any other community would have been completely wiped out with that much rain and how well Houston did in lieu of the amount that came out of the sky. And this may come as a shocker (sarcasm) but one thing all the real scientist after saying the rain-rain-rain was climate change and the heat of the gulf that is the catalyst for these mega storms.
As I say climate change and the weather in Houston is amazing right now for September- 80’s when we are usually at 100. However the sadness is that after that much rain the irrigation systems are already on and at work pumping gallons of potable water out. Wow-what if that water could have been stored for irrigation by HOA’s, MUD’s, commercial, and residential properties? This is my typical educational lesson to my developers 🙂
Yes this is a crisis but so are the wildfires, earthquakes, and other disasters that ravage a community. Too bad we can’t run a pipeline to California to put out those fires. The positive is that we are talking and that Houston is strong and has come together along with strangers from out of state to help be human again. Don’t just read the articles about what was wrong- read about the right! Read about the people who are coming together to save and rescue those in a devastating time of need. It will make you cry- or it should if you are human.
Overall, solutions are going to come with a BIG price tag and who’s paying that price tag? Will other states start picketing when American tax dollars are used to rebuild the levees in New Orleans or even more like the article discusses utilizing the funds to buy up properties in areas like Meyerland which has flooded all three times- 2015/2016/2017? This is an untouchable area for my husband and I on two principal of landscape architecture firm’s salaries- we can’t afford it! But we would want to live there cause it’s beautiful and not urban sprawl. I like the door frame comment cause so many are so quick to judge but most (and again I say most) aren’t willing to attempt to sacrifice time or money to really study the problem or take the time to understand even what a MUD is… if you can’t answer this question then you have no idea anything about Harris County and Houston. We are living on this earth together and everyone has opinions but if you aren’t going to help find a solution and just point the fingers then please, stay out of the conversation.
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