June 29, 2009 at 2:32 pm #176638
Did the people who were laid off have bad attitudes as well?
I think the point of ASLA’s survey was to help analyze this gap. Hence the questions regarding expected and actual skills and salary. I don’t think it addressed attitude per se. I agree that attitude can be a limiting factor for prospective employess, but at the same time I wonder if an employer simply looking for someone they can get along with as a primary factor isn’t doing themselves and the profession a bit of a disservice.
There was an article in LA Mag a couple years ago profiling the principals and hiring managers at SWA. They openly confided that some of the most talented people could be a bit abrasive and that they often overlooked these traits in lieu of hiring the most capable staff.
On the same note, I know alot of people who got jobs because they were simply easy to be around and just ‘did the work in front of them.’ I can see the advantages/disadvantages of either perspective, but I think it’s a bit short-sighted of hiring managers to expect to never be challenged by junior staff. Some share the opposite perspective in that they hire junior staff based on their ability to challenge managers and designers.
I sse your point though that challenging ideas, and attitude are different things and one may take a higher degree of tact than the other, but should a peachy attitude take precedent over skill set or ability to think creatively? I’m not sure.July 15, 2009 at 12:30 am #176637Linda W. JonesParticipant
It would be nice to have both hand-rendering and digital skills. I feel that digitally-skilled people can be seen as artistic, just as hand-rendering skilled people are. Hand-drawing is becoming a lost art.
Linda JonesJuly 15, 2009 at 1:07 am #176636
Hand drawing is defiantly an art form in our community that is dying a slow deathJuly 15, 2009 at 1:51 am #176635Jacob LottParticipant
Funny you should say that, I admit to be weak on the hand drawing side ,yet if I can put it into 3D first, I’ll trace it after so at least it looks like I can draw better…this summer however I do plan on practicing my graphics so I don’t sink without my computer.July 15, 2009 at 1:54 am #176634Jacob LottParticipant
that is very cool. i like the sports field. and nice work on the graphics.. i love the plants.July 15, 2009 at 5:34 pm #176633
I had a project that I was working on the landscape renderings and the architect was working with a renderer on the interior images, the images for the interior were incredible and nearly photo-real, the problem was the design review committee started looking at the wall sconces, and the fabric on the seats rather than the size and shape of the spaces, the renderings defeated the purpose because they were too polished and too clean. we really should not look at Hand vs Computer, but we should look at what the output is going to be and find a way to express the design, in school we also made physical models, they took days to complete but they gave a great way for the “client” to interact with the design. The problem with the models was the fact that you invested so much time into the model that any suggestions or ideas were time consuming and labor intensive and thus you tended not to rebuilt the model thus ending the creative process. It all takes some form of talent and ability all we are trying to do is express the design, any way that is efficient and effective. use lose forms, shapes, and styles early and refine theses shapes, colors, textures, patterns, designs as you get input and eventually getting to a “final” design with polished complete images.July 16, 2009 at 12:55 am #176632
so would you say you wasted you time doing the boards, shouldn’t you have just done the hand graphics to begin with if that was what impressed them? I again feel that it is not hand vs computer, it is whatever you and your talents can convey the message most effectively.July 18, 2009 at 2:57 am #176631
Would ther boards have been more impressive, in your opinion?July 18, 2009 at 5:49 am #176630
I totally agree… neither is better every project has pluses and minuses and each project should dictate what way you present your designsJuly 18, 2009 at 9:41 pm #176629Adam Joseph ShramekParticipant
I think this is a great topic, and I know you use both Nick so don’t think it’s directed at you. In all honesty though I think we as landscape architects are a bit behind the times in our thinking. Why do we think that digital drawing and analog have to be, or are separate things? With modern technology we can literally hand render on a computer.
High end digital hand illustration and painting have been around for well over a decade. Industries such as the automotive, film, game developers, and book illustrators are creating amazing work with out ever using paper. (Check out martiniere.com, conceptart.org, cgsociety.org, imaginefx.com, ect). Many design professionals try to argue that “technology isn’t there yet”, but the specifics of the argument are weak at best. They claim a computer can’t match a hand and writing utensil. It seem everyone has either forgot about a little thing called a tablet and pen or they are living in a cave. It works just like a pencil and is pressure, distance, and angle sensitive. I realize a lot of traditionalist people are at first uncomfortable looking at a screen instead of at the tip of the pen, but that is a taste issue not a performance issue.
If we look at performance we see photoshop’s layers system is faster, cleaner, and more organized than a million sheets of trace. Heck you can even create custom brushes that look like pencil and paint so the argument about digital not having character is mute. You have huge amounts of tweaking options that allow for greater freedom to make adjustment. Often these would take too long or be impossible with traditional media. Finally we have the one of the greatest assets to designers and artists ever be invented; ctrl+z!
I use traditional mediums. I also draw, paint, and conceptualize on a computer. And yes I can lay out a two or three point perspective with out 3d software. Drawing, composition, and lighting do not change no matter if you create digitally of on paper because the principals are the same. If you can do it in one environment you can in another you just have to learn the quirks of each (Color pencil, water color, corel painter). I guess what I am saying is that how you draw is this is more of a taste issue not a “which is better” issue.
The real problem is that an increasing number of designers and students who can not draw. They have to model something so that they can trace it first. That is a huge problem because of three main issues; 1) 3d is still slower than hand 2) what do you do if you don’t have a computer on you and 3) working on 1 design with multiple people is a mess. Not to mention any skilled modeler knows you work from drawings to build a model
Ok sorry about my rant, but I think that we stop fearing technology so long as it is potentially helpful. Do I think everyone should be all digital? No, I believe people work in different ways. Some mostly analog, some more digital, and some a combination. It all comes down to being able to draw and it doesn’t matter on what canvas it is. Drawing skills are what matters!July 19, 2009 at 3:05 am #176628
Good points Adam..
I think one issue that could be argued from the ‘analog’ camp is that sense of scale may not be as accessible in solely digitlal design processes due mainly to the ability to zoom in or out at nearly an infinite number of levels. This goes back to the argument that in designing space, it is critical to have a grasp on scale, which may best be achieved by direct contact, ie pen on paper.
I’m aware of what people are doing in the concept art industries and I agree that I’d like to see more LA’s get past the idea that you need to use a pen to be a designer.
I’m exhausted..apologies if this doesn’t make sense..July 19, 2009 at 3:17 am #176627
It seems like it’s not so much an issue of drawing with a pen vs. digital rendering as much as attention to craft.
I think there are ways to ‘throw’ people into hand drawings and create dull marker renderings just as easy as it is to do this digitally. Given digital methods probably make doing so easier.
The fundamentals which reach beyond the given canvas such as composition, perspective, depth, light quality, and atmosphere can make or break a hand or digital drawing imo.
What I want to know is why are there seemingly,so many people employed who don’t care or understand these things with so many talented and capable individuals beating the streets? The question is admittedly rhetorical, but valid. I don’t mean to direct this question at you necessarily Brian, but to all in this discussion.
Do these fundamentals really even matter anymore? Is it important at all to employers to have staff that can construct perspectives, be it digital or analog?
What is the real value of craft in these tight times?July 19, 2009 at 3:21 am #176626
I think there is either a widespread miscommunication between employers and job candidates or hiring managers may be sending mixed messages regarding desirable skills and marketability.July 19, 2009 at 8:10 pm #176625Mike TupaParticipant
The design process we all pose as our craft is built around our ability to express ideas. We sell ideas. And the only way to sell a design is to illustrate it. That is the essence of our profession and a range of other design professions. My view is that the computer just is not the beginning tool within this craft. It is a great illustration tool when working in your studio or a marvelous tool for compiling construction documents but falls short (at this time) of being a design tool to the fullest sense. Sketchbook graphics over morning coffee, trace renderings (plans and perspectives) within an office among professionals, quick “do you mean something like this” sketches with clients, or a sketched change order in the field with the contractor all require an immediate intent and expression of your idea No computer, so far, can do that. I suggest we learn hand graphics, depend on them, and use computer graphics to refine, detail and finalize those ideas.July 20, 2009 at 11:15 am #176624Trace OneParticipant
I agree, Brian – I find new graduates don’t even know how to ‘think with trace’, something that I think is fundamental to designing…just laying down piece after piece of trace, as you slowly evolve the design…I think computers have ruined our design thinking – architects that are popular now, such as Frank Gehry, don’t even consider the human scale, AT ALL…the base of the building…I disagree with you about the five people around a table with heinekens…however. It is hard to build the inspiration of the individualy designer into the group process..I think the best results are from a single inspired person, with a team to flesh it out..I don’t like groupthink…
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