June 16, 2011 at 2:13 am #162016
I wasn’t saying government doesn’t create jobs…but it does not create near enough jobs for everyone that needs one. My point was that we aren’t sitting around for a job. And I don’t blame a politician because I don’t have one.June 16, 2011 at 3:51 am #162015Alan Ray, RLAParticipant
How many govt. jobs actuall pay their own way? I can’t think of any…..
Post Office?…losing billions a year while ups and fedex make billions….
Amtrack?…also losing billions…why is govt. in rail? why not air and sea travel? just imagine how much more we could throw away on more bloated inefficiency….
where does it end? I guess when the Chinese finally quit lending us money to spend on losing programs…June 16, 2011 at 4:13 am #162014
Define make their own way? I don’t mean ones that are run inefficiently…but just at a local level we pay taxes to have services performed. Our region has been fiscally responsible…saving away for times such as these…so far our parks are still maintained and roads still plowed in the winter. No police have been laid off nor have any teachers. These services are necessary for the greater good not for profit…but just because we aren’t making a profit doesn’t mean we are running a deficit either. I am probably not making any sense…I think I am just saying I don’t think making a profit is always the best way to handle the running of our cities either. I think one reason health care costs are crrraazzzy is because corporations are driven by profit…could they charge less and still make a profit…sure…but they are charged with the responsibility of making their shareholders as much as possible…forcing us all to pay astronomical fees for modest benefit.
So yeah I am curious…do you mean my City Supervisor should not be paid by taxes? That a private company should be in charge of running my city? Because one way or another they have to be paid.June 16, 2011 at 10:57 am #162013
but the concept is incorrect. Producing goods needs roads – it needs safety,order and stability. You cannot take that out of the economic equation.. Amtrak may not make a profit, but wht is the price of the social benefit of having a society that is mobile, that is connected – and Amtraks profitability has a lot to do with the private use of publicly built rails..
I like that interpretation, that makes sense to me, Heather – when people say government doesn’t make jobs they mean don’t wait for the paycheck, go out and sell ice cream from a truck if you have to (I have had to..actually a pretty fun job..).
Government is government, the goods it produces could be called ‘goods’ in that they are more focused on altruism helping others and community..These are essential goods for the society..Mcdonalds produces burgers, a good only in the sense that it is built, since it is neither tasty nor ‘good’ or acting for the good…Goods are goods…it is one world, we are all part of a fabric, as much as we would like to only focus on what we see..
thank you tho, I did learn something from this thread..June 16, 2011 at 12:31 pm #162012Leslie B WagleParticipant
I don’t think anyone opposes some level of government – ie. that it can be more efficient to have the peace of mind to be able to eat in restaurants and know that a sanitary inspector has given them a posted “score,” rather than have to try by guinea pig experiments and passing word of mouth on the nasty ones (trial and error method). So, that adds a kind of benefit to business. But there is also the argument that under excessive taxation taken from both the business and the people who would like to be diners, there are fewer tables set and therefore less need for cooks and waitresses, etc. So the whole argument swirls around HOW MUCH; that is, the whens, wheres, etc. of regulation.
If government (and I was part of a local level one) is perceived as top heavy and inefficient, then as the saying goes “inquiring minds want to know,” and they should have a right to. In my experience, human nature tends to excessive self-protection (greed in eyes of others) no matter which (private or public) sector it operates. Eventually it gets trimmed either by competitive market realities or rough politics, since unfortunately certain cubicles can’t be counted to stay on a moderate course. For example, our local school system was found to have over 100 hidden people making over 100k salaries as “experts” and “advisors” and so forth who weren’t even there a few years ago and do nothing detectable in the classroom environment. This is in a region where thousands of ex-mill workers, ex call center employees, and ex construction and others can’t find work at all. I’m sure the central school office folks all feel “necessary” but I’m not so sure going by letters to the editor, that either the taxpayers or the teachers are convinced. It’s good to have flashlights shining on that kind of situation as well as on fat cats in private corporations.June 16, 2011 at 1:17 pm #162011
yes, it is fairly complex to determine appropriate levels..and then if one gets the feeling of collusion between government and private, like how Goldman Sachs et al have infiltrated government and skewed policies in their favor, so that our tax dollars are going into Lloyd Blankfeins pocket – or in the case of Dick Cheney, our tax dollars are going to support Halliburton, which in turn uses illegal workers at the bottom of the feeding chain who are housed in barracks and treated like slaves, so our tax dollars are used to enslave people..
ok, this is making this irrigation plan suddenly look easy to figure out..
Sunlight is the best medicine as they say..June 16, 2011 at 1:17 pm #162010Jon QuackenbushParticipant
I’d rather get an ibex, they are more entertaining.June 16, 2011 at 1:21 pm #162009Jon QuackenbushParticipant
if they bailed me out of my student loan (which is small potatoes comapred to the bank bailout) I would have a lot more disposable income, and I could then afford to buy/build a house and pay for a car and so on… that would help the economy too! heck, i’d settle for a 0% interest rate too, or make student loan payments tax deductable (not just the interest paid)…
so much we could do instead of give money away to already rich jerks.June 16, 2011 at 1:25 pm #162008Alan Ray, RLAParticipant
…and the govt. subsidises farmers which exploit illeagle workers…so, on it goes….
I STILL WANT TO KNOW WHERE ARE THE GREEN JOBS ??????????????June 16, 2011 at 1:47 pm #162007Christopher PatzkeParticipant
They are visiting the unicorn exhibit at the petting zoo.June 16, 2011 at 2:03 pm #162006Mike GParticipant
TARP = bank bailout, American Recovery and Reinvestment Act = stimulus.June 16, 2011 at 4:08 pm #162005
hahaJune 16, 2011 at 4:15 pm #162004
Green jobs will be created when the market determines they can save more money or make more money. If we mean green jobs as in landscape architecture…well I don’t think we are going to see that. If you mean green jobs as in biotech/smart grid, etc….those will be created as quickly as the market dictates.
When I see a question like this I believe you are saying something more then you are asking. You are angry that Obama hasn’t given you a pony…okay. Say so. Honestly, I don’t even think some landscape architects perform green work…we do residential design/build…is that a “green job”…I don’t think so.
I don’t feel strongly about this either way…because I think a lot of the sustainability/green job talk is made for political points. Ultimately, we can see how invested we as a society are based on our use of fuels and the extraction of them. Within my own community people are protesting the Mega Loads(google Idaho Megaloads if you haven’t heard of them) because of the tar sands. Ironically, most of them drove their SUVs 30 miles to go protest them. I am tired of hearing people complain about things and just complaining. That is why I say…if you want more green jobs…create them. The market dictates the use of fuel…therefore the tar sands are profitable. We are a capitalistic society, we can debate how ethical that is…but it is what it is. I can’t afford a hybrid vehicle…and unfortunately neither can most Americans.June 16, 2011 at 4:45 pm #162003
actually the tar sands extraction is heavily subsized by the government, unfortunately. There are direct tax subsidies, as well as road use, environmental pollution that does not figure into any calculations of cost (tar sand extraction is extremely pollution process of both the air and water..), and the intense use of water that the process requires..
The free market does not exist, except for green initiatives, which cannot seem to get the same subsidies as good old oil
People often do not realize how much the government influences the market…The government really drives the private sector..in some ways..
–June 16, 2011 at 5:02 pm #162002
I understand this. But driving an SUV to protest the Tar Sands…is….
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