September 20, 2012 at 5:26 pm #156594
I will be brief and to the point here.
Land8Lounge does not have moderators for its discussion topics here. Other allied websites (Cyburbia being the best example) have overall forum moderators and codes of conduct. If you post one here at Land8Lounge, you’re the self-appointed moderator.
As a few of you have warned, this forum topic showed early promise of sticking to its original good intention and central question. That did not last long. It has deviated and degenerated since then. In an earlier posting, I even lapsed and subsequently apologized for a less than respectful commentary.
In the last couple of days, the original focus of this topic has been warped by other tangential viewpoints ranging from “voter suppression” to “union-busting” to the tragedy that is the “Citizen United” Supreme Court decision. Worse examples are the few, but highly predictable (considering the source) rabid “foaming-at-the-mouth” tirades (MauiBob your derelict rants never seem to disappoint)
So here is the deal, let’s get the forum back on “point” as in responding to and debating the original postulate, that being :
What if Romney and Ryan Win ? What does it mean for the design professions in general, ours specifically, and the “environment” as a whole ?
If we as a design discipline, can’t seem to discipline ourselves enough to not attack each other’s clearly divergent views and have a more respectable political discourse on a central issue…. then again we disappoint, individually and collectively.
We are far from Alone: Our colleagues at Archinect have also behaved very badly on the comparative forum topic that I originally used as a springboard here.
I’ll let this appeal float a couple of more days to see if any additional opinionators want to stay and not stray. Otherwise I will disconnect the discussion.September 20, 2012 at 5:37 pm #156593September 21, 2012 at 2:25 am #156592tobyParticipant
I am going to stand by my original statement and the first comment made to this thread…”My opinion is that this is not the place for this subject.”
I was not the least bit surprised by the route the thread took. It was typical of any forum that begins with a ‘loaded’ question: it went off route. I would say that behavior here was typical of what I see on drudge.c, slate.c, etc. and it was waaaaay civilized compared theblaze.c and the yahoo.c comments section on news stories.
A wide open question regarding politics cannot be limited
to a what a very narrow segment of the electorate does
because everyday life operates mostly beyond one’s profession.September 22, 2012 at 2:28 pm #156591
Very good point and statement. I have swung around to full convergence on your viewpoint.
Nevertheless, I think this was a useful “sounding board ” forum to gauge willing participants political ideologies, if they could keep it both respectful and on track. If I recall an earlier statement by you, you stated you were one with strong opinions and had a tendency to offer those. Besides your capping on your earlier prediction (which was pretty much on the money) I have yet to see anything else that demonstrates where you stand on this topic.September 22, 2012 at 6:12 pm #156590Rob HalpernParticipant
Wait, so you’re suggesting that in a system where compromise is not a factor there could be a “perfect candidate”?
I can’t wrap my head around how all of those things come together. Except perhaps a military coup, the Nazi take-over of Germany, Khmer Rouge, etc. Those examples enable a “perfect candidate” to get where he is going without compromise. Is that how you imagine it going?
Please say more about your vision for getting a perfect candidate without compromise.September 23, 2012 at 12:13 am #156589tobyParticipant
My opinions can at times be diametrically opposed from each other, and I know this about myself. I do not however want others to use them against me, so I tend to stay on the quiet side of the conversation.
I began a number of relplies to statements made in this thread, but deleted them when I realized they were (a) pushing the subject further from the original question, and (b) heavy on the snark.
I didn’t really see any disrespect in any one answer, nor did I see it in the original question as one commenter did. I found the question you were refering to, considered what kinds of questions are typical of this forum, and left it alone.
So to your question, my answer is: I don’t know.
I’ve made some money when both political parties were in power. As I look back, federal and state policy about ____ probably never really affected me, and tax rates (or cuts) never really affected me either. In the long run, I lost more as I grew weary of 17 years of self-employment, not because of some administration change.
I worry what the low information voter is going to do to this country. More than ever, people are willing to vote against their own interest in the belief that they will be taken along for the ride with the plutrocacy.
Corporations have no patriotism towards this or any country. They will seek leverage where ever they can. They privatize the profits and socialize the costs and some politicians are willing to extol those carpetbaggers.
Most people do not know reason why regulations such as the Clean Air Act, et al., were put in place. They have no idea how much better off we as a country are for them. Proof put forth is unfortunately long winded and lost to short attention spans and shiny objects thrown out by the rent seeking opportunists who want to gut regulation for their benefit.
While I do agree with the overall sentiments in the reply by Alan Ray, RLA on September 14, 2012 at 1:23pm, something has changed. And it ain’t in a good way.
I could go on…September 24, 2012 at 5:31 am #156588Jordan LockmanParticipant
If we had about a dozen political parties we could each have our own ideal political candidate. Fortunately in America for the most part we have taken and merged all these smaller parties into two big parties. Where we are forced to compromise in the party before we even get to election day.September 26, 2012 at 12:10 pm #156587mark fosterParticipant
Three things will happen:
1. the loosing party will come to the wrong conclusion that they did not go far enough to the left/right
2. the winning party will come to the wrong conclusion and decide they have a mandate to go further to the left/right.
3. we will deal with the debt, or it will deal with us. either way, both parties will blame each other.
I hope this will happen: a centrist third party forms which will attempt to address the actual problems we have, instead of arguing centuries old dogmas.September 26, 2012 at 2:01 pm #156586
I also long for what you hope to happen. I think many, many Americans also do, if for nothing else than to have a real clear and stark choice. It seems that third parties that have any staying power and actually do prevail in a democracy-oriented election process only get there through major societal upheavals or disruptions, be they spawned by social/economical/cultural forces.
Current signs (from my vantage point), one can ignore them and continue to believe these convulsions are just twitches that will go away with another “quick fix” or techno-wonder advancement, seem to point in this direction. That is this nation is headed for a long-slow unwinding.
It may not go well. (Yes, something akin to JHK’s Long Emergency).
Third parties can successfully rise from such turmoil and disruption and reestablish a new sense of stability, order and new national direction. History has shown that many of those triumphant third parties are more dangerous and disasterous than the ones they scorned and replaced.
Our own history of the advent of third parties is not encouraging. Seems like the two that made more than a fleeting imprint were headed by charismatic, slightly eccentric (in a good way) and deep-pocketed individuals (first one the exception). Witness Teddy Roosevelt (Bull Moose Party) and who can forget Ross Perot. I will hand the marathon man award to Ralph Nader.September 26, 2012 at 6:05 pm #156585Jordan LockmanParticipant
A third party is great as long as it replaces one of the existing parties. I believe the Republican party was founded as a third party around the time Lincoln was elected(primarily it was anti-slavery) and that is a great example of how a new party can change the world. Unfortunately the republicans are being slapped by change currently and are refusing to change. This I believe could lead to a new second party.
I fear a democracy where a minority is always in charge. The two party system though it is frustrating is the ideal way to get the peoples will acted out in government. Otherwise we need to switch to a primary election system that narrows the final election to two candidates that are essentially in a runoff to ensure a majority has elected our leaders.September 26, 2012 at 9:17 pm #156584
Working my best to be apolitical…I would say not much would change. If the wealthy get tax cuts…does that really increase their spending needs? Have they been holding back on spending? Not so much. And since I am not convinced that keep taxes low or reducing taxes on the wealthy creates more jobs for the middle class, again, not much change. For us, we do design/build…our clientele will be fine anyway. We typically have clients that own their own businesses, work for government and/or are researchers are local universities.
I really wanted to think of something funny…like, maybe we’ll have more contracts for designing personal horse arenas? Or driveways that can accommodate more vehicles? Nah…not funny enough.
I actually came back to this after thinking about our individual situation. We have now been in business for five years and yes, we are growing. This will be our best year yet. Because our community is built on two different state universities, government funding is VERY important. WSU is heavily involved in animal health research and often wins very large federal grants for this purpose. Obviously, the money makes it’s way into our community. UI has won very large NSF grants, among other agricultural grants at both universities…some private and some public. These too generate work for us. So…for us, it is important that we have a president that continues to invest in both research and education at the university levels. Who is more likely to do that?
Additionally, as small business owners we are very invested in Obamacare remaining and continuing to work towards a more sustainable healthcare system in this country. I use the term Obamacare, because even though it was originally supposed to be a slight, I think it is a compliment.:) Health insurance costs are insane for small business owners. If politicians truly care about business in this country they will work towards making our care more affordable…this will also help large companies like Boeing which end up competing with companies like Air Bus that have government funded healthcare.September 26, 2012 at 9:18 pm #156583
I think a lot of the independents you see could be moderate republicans jumping ship. I was in fact a republican in 2000 and am now a registered independent that is decidedly more democratic leaning.September 26, 2012 at 9:53 pm #156582
Because sharing our opinions on land 8 lounge will change the world? Oh boy.September 26, 2012 at 10:07 pm #156581
The expression of our opinions ( e.g. political, professional, product-oriented, trend-spotting) here will not make an atomic particle of difference, will not slow glacial ice melt or cause the inclination of the spin of this planet to noticeably shift.
So does those make the expression of those opinions any less legitmate and worthy of airing ?
My take is that we are in the community of design professionals who should give some measured consideration ( and express it) as to what party will govern our country and what the ramifications of the carrying-out and execution of those policies portend for the environment we purportedly care so much about.
I ask you and others here, has anyone that has been paying attention been hearing about “environmental policy” of either party this election season ? Certainly not where the national fixation is ….even in more illusory times of go-go growth economic hoopla….we were more distracted with where the next hot investment would be and how we could refinance everything for forever….
Forever is over.September 27, 2012 at 4:18 pm #156580
I am sure many of us think that…and I know that many of the people that would be involved in making an actual difference don’t have time to post about it on Land 8 Lounge. The world has no shortage of people willing to sit back and point out what needs to happen, what we need are people who will go out to local government meetings and become involved. Regionally we all have issues we could become involved with, in my area it is water and recreation. Jon joined the Parks and Recreation Commission this year and is interested in joining a local conservation group at some time. I don’t think we should confuse talk with change.
My advice if you want to change things is to become involved in your own local politics. You actually have a lot of sway in local government.
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